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I've been noodling this for a little while and have decided to get out my crystal ball and prognosticate. We've seen an interesting evolution in handguns over the past several decades. The short version is that innovation in handguns used to be driven by military needs. Now it's being driven by civilian self defense market, mostly dominated by the Concealed Carry Revolution. We've gone from the 1911 and Hi Power, where "pocket pistols" were mocked and chambered for cartridges questionable to many; where if you wanted acceptable "power" in your pocket gun, you settled for a .38 snub, to a world of ever evolving smaller semi-autos. Naturally, I'd argue that George Kelgren pioneered this evolutionary branch, beginning with his Grendel and moving forward into Kel Tec with, first, the P11 then the PF9, as well as the P32 and the P3AT for true pocket guns. Yes, there was the Colt Pony and a few knockoffs of that but it never seemed to catch on. Maybe they were too expensive? And competitors saw the PF9 and the P3AT and followed suit, taking Kelgren's basic concept and improving it with their own offerings. For a long time, the palm-sized market was a single-stack 9mm about the size of an open palm and the "pocket gun" market was all about a tiny, single column, .380ACP, usually hammer-fired DAO, like the P3AT. Then Ruger finally did what Kel Tec fans had been asking Kel Tec to do for the PF9 and P3AT; they made it striker-fired, which vastly improved the trigger. And several 1911 makers were coming out with palm-sized 1911 variants with Sig's offering seeming to be the most popular. Then Sig did to the P11 what Kel Tec fans had been asking for and, as Ruger did with the PF9 and P38T, made it striker fired. There were other improvements to be sure, but that was the big one. And suddenly, every gun maker in the world had to have a palm-sized double-stack 9mm.

But it was all driven by the Concealed Carry Revolution.

Around the same time as this innovation was starting, FN answered a military competition with a new ammunition, the 5.7x28. It offers a screaming fast, small and light round, that has tons of range and can penetrate soft armor, and can stuff a truly impressive number of rounds in a magazine. It didn't really gain market acceptance at the time. The ammunition and FN's eventual handgun were both stunningly expensive and the handgun only came in "duty size." After more than a decade of languishing in the shadows eventually other gun makers, again starting with Ruger, started offering their own guns chambered in it. While there are still only a half dozen or so, it's still more than "one" and it is gaining more market penetration, tracking similar to the slow acceptance of the now beloved, and equally expensive, 10mm. The success of the ARMSCOR 22TCM echo's this in the civilian market as well.

America's "Gun Culture 2.0" clearly wants smaller, more concealable, handguns which hold a lot more ammunition, while it equally wants more powerful ammunition in a smaller package and is more than willing to accept a smaller diameter to get it.

Two recent innovations, I believe, give a roadsign to the future, when considered with the above consumer trends. First, a new handgun ammunition has been introduced; the .30 Super Carry. It comes close to the performance of 9mm but is smaller than its competitor and its smaller size allows a significant increase in the number of rounds in a magazine. So more rounds in the same space without sacrificing performance. Second is the military approval of the Sig 6.8, composite case ammunition. The short version is that the U.S. military has "approved" Sig's cartridge which uses a new cartridge case designed to allow pressures of astounding 80,000 PSI! Wowsers!!!

So here's where I channel The Great Carnac. I predict that the next real innovation is going to be the introduction and popularization of a small diameter cartridge case and bullet (.22 or .25) with a high velocity driven by an internal pressure previously impossible in handguns. It will be able to penetrate soft armor of up to Level IIIA with some loadings. This will be driven by a composite case similar to Sigs, with a steel base. It may have a poly body but probably brass because it's reloadable and is better able to withstand the pressure than poly. This will allow chambering in a palm-sized gun with a magazine capacity of 15 in the same mag volume as fits ten 9mm. Think of a souped up .30SC only in .22 cal. The lighter bullet weights will help overcome the extra recoil consequences of the much higher velocity.

Because of the inertia of the 9mm, I'm thinking this will take 25 to 30 years. I'm basing that on how long it took for 9mm to finally overtake .45ACP. Going from then end of WWII, where arguable the .45 gained its mythic status to American shooters, to the 1980's, when the introduction of the Glock G17 (and special marketing to police) really started to take the 9mm over the critical acceptance line, is about 30-ish years. I'm not sure Gun Culture 2.0 has the same inertia that post WWII handgun advocates did but human intransigence is difficult to over state.

Not sure what they'll call it. "22 Ultra Carry" sounds good to me. :)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I'm not so sure ".22 Ultra Carry" will be viable until rail gun technology is pocketable.
I speculate that a steel-based composite case pistol cartridge could sustain pressures of 60K-70K and launch a .224 bullet similar to light .223 Rem/5.56 in the 40-50gr. range at velocities approaching 2K (or more), basically 5.7x28 performance in a smaller package with much higher pressures. Based on the performance of the 6.8 Sig I believe this to be reasonable expectations. Based on the introduction of the 30SC and the changing nature of Gun Culture 2.0, I believe the acceptance of a new cartridge to be more more likely than in the past. More performance with more ammo in a smaller form factor. Yeah, I think that's what GC 2.0 wants.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Interesting concept... I think NAA had a .25 that was based on a necked down .32 ACP case... that went almost nowhere.
Yeah. They have two of them, both still in production, a 25 in a necked down 32 case, and a 32 in a necked down 380 case. They're interesting but haven't really gotten the same market penetration as things like the .22TCM, which is the same exact idea. I think that they just came to the party too early and, further, they haven't been able to get major manufactures to chamber guns in their cartridge, so it remains very niche. For instance, if they could get Ruger to chamber the LCP MAX in either cartridge, or even just offer a barrel conversion to .32NAA, it would take off like a shot. They have upped the advertising for the .32NAA recently. I speculate this is because of the growing acceptance of the .22TCM; they're hoping (I think) to ride the coat-tails of that to greater market penetration, or at least more people knowing their product even exists.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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I'm not so sure ".22 Ultra Carry" will be viable until rail gun technology is pocketable.
Interesting concept... I think NAA had a .25 that was based on a necked down .32 ACP case... that went almost nowhere.
Still plenty of "inertia" around here, Hey Kirk? 😁

You didn't give any math but I think your example "22UC" is a viable one. A 20 to 30 round "micro" sized frame gun with full SD Capable rounds (muzzle energy) would totally trigger the gun grabbers 🤯💯
 

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Honestly, I would consider a Max-9 in .22 TCM or an LCP MAX in .32 NAA for the giggles. I'm not sold on the light bullet, high velocity argument because I simply haven't seen enough data to suggest that what looks good on paper has equally good terminal effects on human size targets. .22 Punch is, I think, a viable option for the simple fact that .22LR only makes small holes anyway, so why not go for the deeper organs with increased velocity behind a .22 cal projo. I honestly wish we still lived in the days when people would tie up living pigs and shoot them to get a more realistic feel for what ammo actually does to a living human analog. That said, if a .22 TCM conversion was available for the CZ P-10 series I think I could really get into playing around with handloading that round.
 

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I speculate that a steel-based composite case pistol cartridge could sustain pressures of 60K-70K and launch a .224 bullet similar to light .223 Rem/5.56 in the 40-50gr. range at velocities approaching 2K (or more), basically 5.7x28 performance in a smaller package with much higher pressures. Based on the performance of the 6.8 Sig I believe this to be reasonable expectations. Based on the introduction of the 30SC and the changing nature of Gun Culture 2.0, I believe the acceptance of a new cartridge to be more more likely than in the past. More performance with more ammo in a smaller form factor. Yeah, I think that's what GC 2.0 wants.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
I fully agree that the modern handgunner wants everything you described, but I'm still doubtful that technology can deliver it in quantities that will make it both financially attractive and versatile enough for a broad swath of ammo configurations from which to choose.

I'm enjoying the innovation show right now, but I'm a bit more skeptical of what will stick and what will really deliver.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I fully agree that the modern handgunner wants everything you described, but I'm still doubtful that technology can deliver it in quantities that will make it both financially attractive and versatile enough for a broad swath of ammo configurations from which to choose.
Fair. I kinda believe that where there is a potentially lucrative market, there are companies willing to put down investment dollars. ;)

I'm enjoying the innovation show right now, but I'm a bit more skeptical of what will stick and what will really deliver.
If nothing else, I enjoy seeing the different ideas.

Personally, I'm fine with the Sig composite case because it's reloadable Reloadable will, almost by default, create variety. I'm not particularly happy with poly based cases.

I think that one area that the very high pressure will see increased costs is the barrels. Barrel/metallurgy technology has only recently gotten to a point of making these both durable enough and cost effective. But they're still going to be more expensive that what we have going now.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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I just think a micro pistol shooting a micro 22 will flop badly. I can just imagine the muzzle blast and flash. Just dont think the rank and file will accept that. I just don’t see a LCP sized pistol spitting out a 40 grain bullet at 2000 fps. You would be holding a fireball in your hand.

I think of my .22 Short NAA. It’s a blast to shoot, literally and figuratively. Forget about a fast follow up as the diminutive pistol is pointing straight up after the shot. Has to be repositioned every time. After 50 rounds at the range (I have never gotten that far with it) your hand will be covered with gunpowder residue. And that’s with 22 Shorts.

Put your 22 Ultra Carry in a LCP and I bet you get the same experience.
 

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The 25 and 32 IMO are a nitch round only. Most don't know anything about them anymore and the average gun owner wouldn't buy into them. These round are just not going to capture any size of the market. They are okay but I have no desire to buy them at all
 

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The 25 and 32 IMO are a nitch round only. Most don't know anything about them anymore and the average gun owner wouldn't buy into them. These round are just not going to capture any size of the market. They are okay but I have no desire to buy them at all
Inertia, defined.
 

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Skip to 5:56 if you don’t want to watch the whole thing.


if you aren’t convinced of the viability of a small light bullet at higher velocity after watching this vid then I don’t know what would convince you.
 

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Skip to 5:56 if you don’t want to watch the whole thing.


if you aren’t convinced of the viability of a small light bullet at higher velocity after watching this vid then I don’t know what would convince you.
Convince us of what? we know what a bullet will do at different velocities.
 

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Skip to 5:56 if you don’t want to watch the whole thing.


if you aren’t convinced of the viability of a small light bullet at higher velocity after watching this vid then I don’t know what would convince you.
Lot more to it than small, light, and fast. I can show you everything from fragmenting on impact to a small hole in and a small hole out. Bullet structure means a lot.
 

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I'm enjoying the innovation show right now, but I'm a bit more skeptical of what will stick and what will really deliver.
I agree, while I am loving red dots on pistols and actually have a few handguns with weapon lights and almost all compact --> Full size have Flared magwells... I never thought any of my handguns would have ANY of those... but I have read about them, tried them and really liked them.

I am starting to play with comps now... a little more involved but at the same time kinda the same as suppressed rifles. But instead of buffers and springs on an AR you play with recoil spring weights and tungsten rods...

I am kinda really liking the Strike Industries Mass driver. It is weird at first to shoot but after you get used to it, much flatter shooting and follow up shots are quick as hell. My red dot never leaves my view.

What out of all of that will "stay" and which are destine to go the way of the dodo, we shall see. Personally I think red dots are here to stay, everything else... not sure.

As for the next big innovation??? Hmm... yeah smaller faster could make sense...

I'm thinking recoil management though, some kind of system that isn't a comp. Maybe an integrated comp into barrel along with an RSA innovation, like make it adjustable. That way you could apply that to lets say 10mm or 22mag.

Edit: I was on crack apparently and typed RCA for some reason... RSA (Recoil Spring Assembly). Duh...
 

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You didn't give any math but I think your example "22UC" is a viable one. A 20 to 30 round "micro" sized frame gun with full SD Capable rounds (muzzle energy) would totally trigger the gun grabbers 🤯💯
You can’t get 20-30 rounds if those rounds have to carry enough powder to drive a 40-50 grain bullet to AR rifle velocities from a 3” barrel.
Unless they come up with some new powder with some wonky physical properties, that ain’t happenung

Inertia, defined.
Or is it simply an expression of the limiting attraction of weak small cartridges due to the physics of things?
Inertia is a reality…but that doesn’t make it wrong. It exists for a reason.

Until you push the smaller bullets faster, AND do it with a small case volume, AND make the bullets work properly at high speed….which they WON’T do on meat, if they are designed to penetrate armor…you aren’t going to displace the micro 9.

Meanwhile, the 1911 has given birth to the 2011, and you can buy slim double stack 9 mm guns that look like Browning could have designed them 120 years ago, or you can get 12 9 mm bullets into a pocket-sized gun, or you can carry a 9 mm with 22+1, not to mention a 10 mm that holds 16+1, weighs 31 ounces, and costs less than a Sig P365.

The 30 SC was ALL the buzz. And now? No one cares.
 

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You can’t get 20-30 rounds if those rounds have to carry enough powder to drive a 40-50 grain bullet to AR rifle velocities from a 3” barrel.
Unless they come up with some new powder with some wonky physical properties, that ain’t happenung



Or is it simply an expression of the limiting attraction of weak small cartridges due to the physics of things?
Inertia is a reality…but that doesn’t make it wrong. It exists for a reason.

Until you push the smaller bullets faster, AND do it with a small case volume, AND make the bullets work properly at high speed….which they WON’T do on meat, if they are designed to penetrate armor…you aren’t going to displace the micro 9.

Meanwhile, the 1911 has given birth to the 2011, and you can buy slim double stack 9 mm guns that look like Browning could have designed them 120 years ago, or you can get 12 9 mm bullets into a pocket-sized gun, or you can carry a 9 mm with 22+1, not to mention a 10 mm that holds 16+1, weighs 31 ounces, and costs less than a Sig P365.

The 30 SC was ALL the buzz. And now? No one cares.
To be far. 4 people care. 4
 

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I realized Kirk was dreamwheeling a compact or sub and I was stuck in more of a handcannon full size mode when I started thinking about barrel length. Resident time/pressure curve in the barrel still applies exactly as it does today.
I'd be interested in the interim with just better hand cannons. FK Bruno proves a lot of what Kirk postulates, it's a good start towards this.
It's definitely going to be incremental and most guns of the near future may only push the envelope one feature at a time...
 
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