Hi-Point Firearms Forums banner
1 - 20 of 280 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
232 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This goes out to those who fly this flag. Why?? I don't see any good reason except if you are prejudice. Admitting that shows at least you are for real. Anything else is BS. If your great great grandfather fought for the confederacy then he has earned the right. The flag is a part of history and belongs in a museum and that is it. It is offensive to more than just African-Americans and calling it Heritage not Hate is ridiculous. The 'Heritage ' that it represents is SLAVERY. Calling it anything else makes you a phony, just like the cowards that wear hoods so noone knows who they are. Be a man and call yourself what you are. Don't hide behind BS. You're not fooling anyone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,902 Posts
Actually if you do some historical research you will find that, despite what the government and the leftist movement would like you to believe and is taught in school, slavery was actually a periphery issue of the civil war.

There are many events that led to this war, and many reasons given for the cause of the war. Main Stream historical documentation teaches us that "Slavery" was the cause of the war. This may have been a very small portion, but primarily the war was about "States Rights", "Unfair Legislative Representation", and "High Tariffs on Southern Exports", all designed to loot the coffers of the South . It is true that less than 10% of the southern white population owned slaves. So to the logical, why would 90% of all others (storekeepers, lawyers, judges, doctors, farm-hands etc...) go to war to protect the rights of less than 10% of the people to own another human being. The answer is they would not. Generally, slavery was made an issue by the North (all the while some Northern states were still trading in human flesh) Even after Lincoln's' Emancipation Proclamation, Missouri was trading in Slaves.
http://www.civilwarhistory.com/slavetrade/causes.htm

For the record, I am not a southerner though my Dad came from Missouri and my Mom came from Oklahoma. Nor am I now nor have I ever been in favor of slavery or of the opinion that any race was/is superior to any other. I would just the like the historical facts to be stated correctly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,376 Posts
I only have one flag, the Stars and Stripes.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
232 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I only have one flag, the Stars and Stripes.
you and me both!!
some people in the south would call us front runners :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
506 Posts
I gotta chime in on this one. If you do some reading you will come to the realization that the Civil war was fought more for economic reasons that for those of racial equality. The Emancipation Proclamation was issued during the war, not before. It was another way to further destabilize the south. While the States had been argeuing for years over slavery they had come to several agreements including only allowing two states into the union at a time (one slave, one abolitionist) so as to keep the balance. Look up topics like the Kansas-Nebraska Act etc.

While I do not support slavery or racism I think we would all be better of if more people to a step back and relearned what really went down during the years preceding the Civil War.

I used to be under the same impression as you jrsky & .45, I would suggest you both brush up on your history.
For those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,902 Posts
So far I agree with everything stated, except the first post. I hold only one flag, the United States Flag, I was merely pointing out the historical inaccuracies in the OP.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,376 Posts
I gotta chime in on this one. If you do some reading you will come to the realization that the Civil war was fought more for economic reasons that for those of racial equality. The Emancipation Proclamation was issued during the war, not before. It was another way to further destabilize the south. While the States had been argeuing for years over slavery they had come to several agreements including only allowing two states into the union at a time (one slave, one abolitionist) so as to keep the balance. Look up topics like the Kansas-Nebraska Act etc.

While I do not support slavery or racism I think we would all be better of if more people to a step back and relearned what really went down during the years preceding the Civil War.

I used to be under the same impression as you jrsky & .45, I would suggest you both brush up on your history.
For those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
History is history and is in the past and I do agree that one can learn from the past, that wasn't my point.
My point I think was pretty clear, I have only one flag, the Stars and Stripes.

I am of Italian heritage but I am American. I do not fly the Italian flag, not even with my American flag. I do recognise the Confederate flag as a part of our history as was the Lone Star flag. They were and are a part of our history but they are not the American flag.
There is only one.

 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
232 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I am fully aware of the history of the Cival War, before and after. I understand and know the full meaning of the stars and bars. What I am stating is the the people that fly it is for one reason only. Ask any black american what the rebel flag means. You will get one answer. It is an important part of american history and should be remembered, but in a museum as I stated before. No matter what it actually totally means, it is seen as what it is meant for now, HATE. Anyone who flies it now does for one reason.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,917 Posts
I have to add the devil's advocate opinion in this, chalk it up to being a person that looks at both sides of things... Whatev'.

The Stars and Bars is a historical artifact due to the history of the South. Now, being a southerner, the Stars and Bars is something that stands for the ideology of the time, and history has always been held in high regard, where you come from, what was held dear. It's been steeped in the style of life that is lived in the South.

Not to say that I defend the stance of a Rebel. I am NOT a rebel, in any way shape or form. However, I am not going to stand here and tell you that if you are the decendant of Confederate Soldiers, which I am not personally, that you can't identify with that flag. My family has roots in the South, my full blooded Cherokee Great Grandmother walked the trail of tears as a child.... I know the history. Now, take that and add that I grew up in the North, via Minnesota, and am proud of what I've experienced there.... I see both sides of the arguement. So, I am not going to tell you that you are racist for flying the Stars and Bars, because it wasn't about race, or slavery or any of that. It was about freedom to do what made you money, what made you happy and how you saw fit to live your life....

I am personally only going to identify with the Stars and Stripes. However, that's just me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
959 Posts
Ask any black american what the rebel flag means. You will get one answer.
are you so sure about that one?
HK Edgarton- http://www.southernheritage411.com/
Nelson Winbush- http://www.sptimes.com/2007/10/07/State/In_defense_of_his_Con.shtml
Walter Williams-http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams012600.asp
Anthony Hervey-http://www.revisionisthistory.org/black_confederates.html

now I could go on and on, but since you are so mindnumbingly brainwashed to believe that everyone with a confederate flag is some bedsheet wearing hick, it wouldn't do any good.

simple answer, I have a confederate flag because THAT is my heritage, whether you like it or not. it may offend you, or whoever, but quite frankly, I don't give a damn.

now let's turn the tables around bud.

the United States flag flew over the genocide of how many native Americans? it flew over "internment camps" of Japanese American citizens during WW2, it flew over the rape, pillage and plunder of the South. it flew over Slave ships for 80 years, and under it Slavery was a legal and accepted practice before during and AFTER the war for Southern independence. it was the flag of segregation ( yes, segregation happened in the north too bud) under it Jim crow laws were born, should I go on?

whats good for the goose is good for the gander
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,917 Posts
Ask any black american what the rebel flag means. You will get one answer.
are you so sure about that one?
HK Edgarton- http://www.southernheritage411.com/
Nelson Winbush- http://www.sptimes.com/2007/10/07/State/In_defense_of_his_Con.shtml
Walter Williams-http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/williams012600.asp
Anthony Hervey-http://www.revisionisthistory.org/black_confederates.html

now I could go on and on, but since you are so mindnumbingly brainwashed to believe that everyone with a confederate flag is some bedsheet wearing hick, it wouldn't do any good.

simple answer, I have a confederate flag because THAT is my heritage, whether you like it or not. it may offend you, or whoever, but quite frankly, I don't give a damn.

now let's turn the tables around bud.

the United States flag flew over the genocide of how many native Americans? it flew over "internment camps" of Japanese American citizens during WW2, it flew over the rape, pillage and plunder of the South. it flew over Slave ships for 80 years, and under it Slavery was a legal and accepted practice before during and AFTER the war for Southern independence. it was the flag of segregation ( yes, segregation happened in the north too bud) under it Jim crow laws were born, should I go on?

whats good for the goose is good for the gander
Historically speaking, unreconstructed is right. Right or wrong, it's TRUE. Check your history books for further verification. My Great Grandmother walked the trail of tears, and I have the documentation to prove it.

Look people, all the flag does is give you a rally point. It doesn't mean that your cause is greater than mine. We just identify with different values... That's about it.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
19,454 Posts
the stars and bars is no diferent then the gadsen flag or any other banner flown. it is a symbol. i display it becuase i endorse the spirit of individuality and guts that the rebels had to say "we dont like your way. we're going our own way." they may have been incorect but the spirit of what thy were doing still stands. that said no banner of any kind is subordiante to the american flag no matter what.

SW
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,917 Posts
Jesus, when it comes to that, the Fleur De Le of the French stands for the Spirit of Joan Of Arc. My wife is French, and has the Fleur tattooed on BOTH of her wrists to symbolize the spirit of some *IMHO* half witted, nutso, schizophrenic waste of flesh. Heh... think about it, that's the only war the French ever won..... Go figure.

Thank you SW, for calling it a symbol, something that represents an ideology. For that is exactly what it is.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
959 Posts
Let me give you an example of something here.

Any time the KKK marches, burns crosses, or performs sexual acts with their livestock they do so with at least 3 symbols. the American flag, the Christian cross, and the MIOAK. their cross symbol. some of them also use confederate flags because their historical and cultural education is about as good as some of the members here...

so why aren't you protesting at the first baptist church of wherever because that cross the have on the wall is a "racist symbol"?

why don't you go down to the post office and demand they remove the stars and stripes because you feel it's offensive since you saw Jim bob Klansman using it?

anything can be made into a racist symbol.

I could take a pair of clown shoes, go downtown and start spewing racial epithets, and at least someone would think that clowns are a racist symbol.

one more thing, if you're going to blindly hate something, at least get the terminology correct.

the Statrs and bars was a name given to the first National Confederate flag, shown here:


the battle flag, the navy Jack, the AOT flag, or whatever incarnation you choose to hate was known as the Southern cross.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,917 Posts
After a quick WIKI search, again, this man is right....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
313 Posts
What I am stating is the the people that fly it is for one reason only.
No way you can make a blanket bundle statement like that!

I had a large one on the back window of an 83 z28 while living in Orange NJ. Drove it around like that until I moved about two years.

I flew the battle flag other wise known as the Rebel flag. But I did so based solely on those ideals of the name.

I can not say it much better then David Sarratt American Studies University of Virginia so I will quote him
First, we must understand that symbols like the Confederate Flag have no intrinsic meaning. The meanings symbols carry is that which humans attach from their own learning. Thus, any viewer of a symbol is free to assign it any range of meanings. The symbol itself, then is constant, but the value symbolized is not.

The issue of race and the Confederate flag is both the simplest and the most important factor in the controversy. Blacks, unlike whites, have a generally unified opinion on the matter. They see the flag as a symbol of a racist past, a past of servitude, slavery, and second-class citizenship for African-Americans, and they have no desire to revel in the so-called glory, bravery, and refinement of such a heritage. Blacks are not apt to have any fond idealistic remembrances of the Old South or harbor any sympathy for the Confederate cause. The fact that the symbol still lingers and has such a prevalent postion in society over 130 years after the Civil War is in and of itself evidence to blacks that racism is alive and well. The flag is the banner of white supremacy groups in the United States, like the Ku Klux Klan, and is even used abroad by neo-nazi skinhead groups. African-American scholar Mwangi Kimenyi offers that, "the Confederate flag is the semi-official symbol that represents the mark of 'old all white' traditions and the exclusionary feelings of whites towards blacks" (52). Blacks see the flag as a marker that "stands in the schoolhouse door," keeping them from having the rights that are theirs as Americans. Whites retaliate with the argument that hate groups like the Ku Klux Klan also misuse symbols like the cross, but that doesn't stop churches from using crosses. Other whites claim First Amendment rights, saying that no matter what the flag symbolizes, the "true friend of liberty realizes we must allow...the Confederate flag," to be flown wherever individuals choose
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~CLASS/AM483_97/projects/sarratt/intro.html
I do not expect to change your opinion as it seems deep rooted already. But saying that ALL people who fly it are racist is over reaching. I fly it because it represents to me a time when simplistic values prevailed meaning: a deal was done on a hand shake and people stood up to the powers that be on their beliefs rather then take the blue pill and follow the herd of sheeple losing their rights and power of opinion in the process. I was not taught or programed the flag meant I promote slavery. I was taught it stood for a time period when your ability to act out for or against a cause meant something.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
959 Posts
After a quick WIKI search, again, this man is right....
let's do you one better.

One of the major causes of teh War of Southern independence was economic in nature.

you probably say that the South left because St. Abraham was a champion to the slave, the friend of the little man.. right?

actually he was a keen supporter of "internal improvements" projects, mainly for the industrial North. Southerners were already tired of their hard earned money being stolen to go into the federal coffers, in order to pay for Northern railroads, something that Southerners felt they had no obligation to pay. that is why "internal improvements" were specifically banned in the Confederate constitution.

another thing is tariffs, which was the reason that SC had already threatened to secede once.

On Slavery:

So you think the war was about Slavery?
explain to me why the SOuth didn't just rejoin the Union and support the "original" 13th ammendment, the Corwin ammendment ( which was endorsed by "the great emancipator" himself) which would have specifically prohibited congress from intefering with the institution of Slavery.

Speaking of "St. Abe", explain why he didn't free a single Slave through his fabled proclamation. read the document itself, along with a map of Union and Confederate held territory, and you suddenly realize that he went out of his way to make sure that he didn't actually "emancipate" anyone.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
19,454 Posts
The more time passes and the more historians dig into Lincoln, the darker the picture of him gets. i cant say he did a BAD job as i feel he did what he could with what he had. he just didnt have much of anyhting good to work with. you know what they say about polishing a turd......

SW
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,376 Posts
I don't consider it racist but rather historical.

I also agree with the idea that in a modern context it can represent a rebel attitude.

As a Country we are sometimes a little too PC.
Why is it that the flag in question is considered racist but the NAACP, UNCF and such are not?
As for the Stars and Stripes being flown over internment camps and such, sure there were mistakes made and admitted to. We're not perfect as a Country or a People but at least in my opinion we are a fine example of ideals. of what things should or could be.
We admit to our mistakes and though it may take awhile we attempt to remedy our errors.
The ideals represented by our flag are what allow us to have open and honest discourse on such matters.
 
1 - 20 of 280 Posts
Top