Things to remember about C&R

Discussion in 'Curio & Relic Zone' started by FlashBang, Dec 28, 2014.

  1. FlashBang

    FlashBang I Stand With Talon Lifetime Supporter

    They won't call you or visit you. If your NICS is clear you'll get it in the mail.
    I've never been audited by them, but keep your records (Bound Book) in proper order and you'll have nothing to worry about.

    A couple of things to remember:

    1. A C&R is not a dealer license, it is for your own personal use and collection

    2. ATF cannot just show up at your door to see your records, they have to schedule and appointment, which can either be at your location or at their offices. The choice is yours, but unless you want to haul all your C&R firearms to their office, it is better to schedule it out your location.

    3. Once you have your C&R, any firearm you buy that meets C&R status, whether you used your license to buy it or not, must go into your Bound Book.

    4, You are allowed to sell some of your C&R firearms "in furtherance of your collection" but you cannot make it a business of buying and selling.

    5. Unlike an 01 FFL, if you chose not to renew you C&R FFL at the end of its term, you do NOT have to send your records (Bound Book) to the ATF and can destroy the records if you so desire.

    Keep in mind that any firearm that is 50 years old or more is a C&R qualified firearm, this includes certain NFA registered machine guns. ;)

    It also means that every year there are more things that qualify. In 2015 this means any pre-1966 manufactured firearm is now C&R and you can buy it using your C&R FFL and have it sent direct to you. So if you can find a nice pre-1966 AR-15 (Colt SP1) you can buy it direct. :)

    Other then the fact that you may spend all your money buying firearms... the C&R is the best $30 you'll probably ever spend.

    .
     
  2. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    Exceptional post. Wish I could "like" it more than once.

    I nominate it for Post of the Week. There's a prize for that, right? ;)

    Seriously though, I think I may copy this post off and make it part of a sticky somewhere.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     

  3. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    This is probably a pretty big "gotcha." Thanks for pointing this out.

    So a person could buy on C&R license, let his license "expire," destroy his Bound Book (and the records), then reapply and do it again? Lather, rinse, repeat.

    Does it automatically become C&R, or does it just become "eligible" to become C&R and then the ATF has to specifically place it on the list?

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  4. I was not aware of that. Always thought the opposite. My C&R is up next year and do not plan on renewing it - just not into it anymore.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2014
  5. FlashBang

    FlashBang I Stand With Talon Lifetime Supporter

    That is probably the biggest mistake people make with their Bound Book.


    You could get your C&R and purchase firearms using it until it is due for renewal. Then when it is due for renewal you could not renew and destroy your Bound Book and no longer need to record the sale of any of the firearms you bought using the C&R. You could wait 1 year or so and reapply, rinse and repeat. I would not recommend it however as you will throw a big red flag up and be visited by the ATF. The last thing you want is an ATF investigation on you... they WILL find something if they want to. There is always a Catch 22 with the ATF that you do not want to get caught in. It is so easy to play by the rules that you would be a fool not to.


    The firearm only needs to be 50 years old and it is automatically a C&R. The ATF does not keep an ongoing updated list as it is nearly impossible.

    Per the ATF:
    Q: What is a firearm curio or relic?

    Firearm curios or relics include firearms which have special value to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:



    1. Have been manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof; or
    2. Be certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; or
    3. Derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.
    [18 U.S.C 27 CFR 478.11]

    Your C&R license allows you to purchase these firearms, but there are some 01 FFL's who will not accept it when purchasing a firearm from them that is C&R. There are a couple of reasons for this; first is that some 01 FFL's feel that a C&R FFL holder is cheating them out of their transfer fees because the firearm can be sent directly to the C&R holder, the second issue is that many 01 FFL's do not understand the C&R rules or what is or is not classified a C&R firearm. Rather then take a chance they simply refuse to accept it. If a C&R firearm has been modified from its original condition, made to be a sporting rifle etc., it is no longer classified a C&R by virtue of it no longer being original.

    When you get your license NEVER sign the original. Make a copy, sign it without a date on it, make copies of the signed dateless one to use as required and lock up your original for safe keeping. I also scan in a signed copy for sending to online distributors and simply edit the file to put the current date on it for them.

    The most important thing you need to do when you get your license is to read and learn the C&R rules and regulations. Never be afraid to ask, it is much easier then doing 10 years in prison. ;)
     
  6. lklawson

    lklawson Staff Member

    That's what I thought. I realized after I posted that I should have looked it up myself but I suppose I was just feeling lazy. :) That said, keeping the thread going with useful information like this is a net gain.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  7. bscar

    bscar Supporting Member

    How would that NFA thing go, though?
    I want to buy an original Tommy Gun, so I send the C&R license to the seller, pay the tax stamp for the gun and I'm good to go?
     
  8. FlashBang

    FlashBang I Stand With Talon Lifetime Supporter

    The machine gun would need to be classified a C&R and fully transferable. When you purchase you send your C&R FFL to the seller, who will be an FFL with their Class 3 SOT. The seller will fill out the Form 4 and you will need to provide the NFA required items ( fingerprints, photos, CLEA sign-off ). You then send the completed Form 4 and all required items to the NFA with a $200 fee. After ~6 months the seller will get an approved Form 4 sent to them with the stamp affixed. The seller can then send the machine gun directly to you instead of having to be transferred via a Class 3 FFL. It saves you the standard $75 transfer fee for Class 3 firearms. The machine gun MUST transfer on a Form 4 and not a Form 3 as a C&R is not a dealer license.

    While you can do this for C&R machine guns, the preferable way is to use a Trust to purchase any transferable MG with.
     
  9. bscar

    bscar Supporting Member

    It'd be several years before I could afford a Tommy Gun anyways. Unless I took out an unsecured personal loan for like 20~30 grand :/
     
  10. cc-hangfire

    cc-hangfire Member

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    One note on Flashbang's C&R post above:

    "3. Once you have your C&R, any firearm you buy that meets C&R status, whether you used your license to buy it or not, must go into your Bound Book."

    That is the safest thing to do if you have any doubts on the matter.

    But since the C&R bound book is specifically to record transactions associated with your C&R license, it does not have to include firearms acquired legally by other means (01FFL/4473 form, or private sale if legal in your state).

    See discussion at the following link:

    http://curioandrelicfirearmsforum.yuku.com/topic/19731/C-R-record-book-entries

    And for the ATF site regulation, see:

    https://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-10.pdf

    Since from that ATF document (in section 10.2.1), "The collector of curios or relics license serves one purpose - it enables the holder to receive curio or relic firearms interstate under the GCA", if you receive/obtain a firearm by another legal means (like, you bought it from your LGS - not interstate, & the LGS used form 4473), you didn't use your C&R license to obtain it and therefore it doesn't have to be recorded on your bound record.

    With all respect to Flashbang and the opinions of others, each C&R licensee should make their decision based on their comfort level.