think you don't need to shoot someone with a knife????

Discussion in 'Vintage Topic Archive (Sept - 2009)' started by Thayldt21, Jan 22, 2008.

  1. Thayldt21

    Thayldt21 Senior Member Member

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  2. Our small town PD, pop just under 4000, has been forced to shoot two knife wielding individuals in the last 5 years because they refused to put the weapon down, and then decided to charge the officers. Both shooting resulted in death for the perp. Knives are deadly weapons and that officer is lucky to have only suffered cuts and not life threatening stab wounds that could have severed an artery or punctured a vital organ.
     

  3. Thayldt21

    Thayldt21 Senior Member Member

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    good edit there rim it was a 1 or 2 am addition.

    and if you ask me those were life threatening and very much so life altering wounds.

    I have to admit that when that link was sent to me by my bud I did not expect it to be nearly as bad as it is.

    brings a whole new light to my eyes.

    I think I myself may have been in the group that said there is no need to shoot a knife wielding person BUT now my veiw is with out doubt changed.
     
  4. Amen.

    In my self defense course, we did a demo. A person stood 20 feet from a target / place he had to hit. The person with the gun stood ready, gun in holster. When the BG started running toward his target, the GG was to draw and shoot. Granted, many of the testers had not practiced this before - but recall, HOW MANY practice this ongoing, really? The BG ALWAYS hit his target before the GG got a shot off. And the GG didn't see the BG running AT HIM, so that pressure wasn't there.

    NET - 20 feet is the minimum range - inside that circle, and it's a potential for deadly contact if you haven't drawn.
     
  5. Jackpine Savage

    Jackpine Savage Member

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    PPCT redid the old Caliber Press test on suspects armed with a knife. This time without the officer being told the suspect was armed. The new minimum safe distance is 30' for an alert well trained officer. Or 10 yards, minimum. Any closer and the gun needs to be in your hand.

    Take Care and Stay Safe.
     
  6. Some states have different laws concerning the use of deadly force for legally armed citizens. In SC a knife wielding BG is considered a deadly threat and if you are unable to exercise your duty to retreat you are protected in the event you use your CCW to stop the threat.

    The most important thing is know your state and local laws concerning the use of deadly force to stop a threat who may be armed with something other than a firearm. This is one reason I think EVERYONE who carries a CCW should be willing to pay a little out of pocket money and attend a certified concealed carry class. Even if your state does not require such classes they are well worth the expense because any good CC instructor will cover the legal aspect of when you can, can not, use your CCW to protect your life or the life of those around you.
     
  7. yowza thats some major damage.
     
  8. neothespian

    neothespian Member

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    +1!!!

    In the State of Arizona, a knife is (in regards to citizens rights) NOT considered a precursor to the use of deadly force via firearm unless it's in response to an attach that has the POTENTIAL for deadly result (figure out THAT legal jargon!)

    While Arizona has some of the most liberal firearms laws (and liberal as in less confining), their application laws are VERY strict. Many laws such as DUI, non-insurance and what not are considered zero-tolerance laws and are often given the maximum consideration when it comes to sentencing. It makes determining when to use a weapon very difficult, and imperative to the user and the rest of his or her family on what they carry and how they use it. The old adage "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" just doesn't work, because the concequences are often times worse than death.

    Just ask anyone who's been in an Arizona SuperMax prison or has had ANYTHING related to the arms offense taken and sold off by the state (that has also included land, cars, credit and checking accounts used to purchase the firearm and more).

    Of course, if you're in the legal right, the state DOES have a good rep for protecting the citizen and their rights. It's severe on either side of the fence around here.
     
  9. Thayldt21

    Thayldt21 Senior Member Member

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    Scary part is I cannot unholster my XD9 faster than I can run 20'.

    I thought I was fast bust realized that I am infact fast, fast runner and by no means a Doc Holliday.

    And as I practice I try to slow down to be smooth and not get the yank hang up by grabin some shirt or just fumbling the weapon.

    All I can say is practice practice practice then practice some more. Also take some defence classes that deal with an attacker with a bladed weapon.

    Hell at least get a buddy to do this with.

    WHole new realm of self defence.
     
  10. pills

    pills Guest

    if you encounter someone with a knife out that is threatening you, your weapon should already be unholstered and ready.
     
  11. neothespian

    neothespian Member

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    I'd choose another member of the famous Tombstone 5, since Doc Holiday was considered the slowest and most frail of the group physically :p

    But in all seriousness, the biggest trick is to be aware of your environment since if and when you do have to draw, it will probably be at the most awkward time possible (Food tray loaded with burgers at the food court, trying to get the 2 year old back out of Toys-R-Us, etc). We, on the average, are not LEO's, and thankfully don't have to have our draw times refined for everyday application. But this is where we learn to use our senses and our minds to compensate as responsible gun owners.
     
  12. MAN that had to have hurt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Thats exactly why I am not going to mess around trying to shoot someone in the leg to "disarm" them.

    I hope he shot the SOB that did that to him.
     

  13. Train with your weapon AT LEAST 3 nights a week.... Uncover, draw, pivot, extend and dry fire. Practice doesn't make perfect, PERFECT PRACTICE makes perfect.
     
  14. Thayldt21

    Thayldt21 Senior Member Member

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    Now I see a lot of advice comming.

    But I have to ask. How many of you can unholster your weapon and pull the trigger faster than you can run 20'???????????????????????????????

    You can give all the advice you want but the simple fact is unless your a LARGE man or very out of shape or OR Gun slinging Billy The pimp you will find that the run time is faster.

    I do practice often as I have nothing much better to do and a lot of time locked up in the house with the little man.

    The fact is if a Guy with knife out of the blue with no warning charges you, your screwed. The officwer is alive and the BG may be dead but that officer will never ever never ever nevernever ever be the same again.

    point is How to prevent this from happining to you??????????????????
     
  15. pills

    pills Guest

    an out of the blue attack? You can't prevent. Just hope that the initial wounds/shock isnt so bad that you cant recover and stop the threat.
     
  16. Cant agree more!!!! I am pretty sure Primal reads SWAT Magazine???????
     
  17. condition1

    condition1 Member

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    wow that looked rough. The LEO is lucky this guy slashed instead of stabbed...

    Can I draw faster than I can run 20 ft? You betcher @$$ I can! Get out somewhere you can practice what Primal said (draw pivot etc). Try cans at 25-30 (most situations would actually be much closer) feet at 3 different angles to yourself. If you can consisitently get close to a can at that distance, you should have any problem at all with an attacker. It does wonder for your ability to acquire a target if you have a buddy telling you 'right, middle, left', mixing it up so you're always changing your aimpoint.

    I would also say that if you think the best thing to do is run, then run like the wind. Good judgment should be your guide.

    Another thing about shooting someone to wound and then disarm. Or even the fabled 'warning shot'. Don't. Anyone threatening you or your family's safety (not your property) you should make absolutely sure they are thoroughly incapacitated (use whatever word you want, I'm trying to be PC).

    Just realize there are consequences for every action you take.
     
  18. Kelotravolski

    Kelotravolski Member

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    the warning shot is fired afterwards so you have an extra shell casing on the ground.


    20' is not very far so I would consider someone with a knife 20' away to be an immediate threat. I would def get my gun out and probably back up.
     
  19. Bandit320

    Bandit320 Member

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    Your forgetting about reaction time. Subtract the time that it takes you notice the charge, decide it's time to react, and get your draw going. Ask a friend of yours to surprise you sometime without warning and I bet you'll be surprised how little room you have.

    ....Another thing about shooting someone to wound and then disarm. Or even the fabled 'warning shot'. ....

    Your right. I believe the conventional thinking is that if you are just trying to wound him or warning him, you just fired your weapon in a situation that did not warrant use of deadly force. You could, and in this day and age, probably will be charged with a crime for this.

    Mike
     
  20. IF you have to use a firearm to defend yourself, or those around you, you always SHOOT TO STOP THREAT! If it wounds or results in death of the perp so be it, but always SHOOT TO STOP.

    Every self defense class I have attended teaches you to shoot center mass, not the legs or arms. Always shoot center mass to stop the threat.

    Remember.. we do not shoot to kill or shoot to main, we shoot to stop.

    Reaction time will always depend on the situation and your frame of mind. If you are all into something your reaction time will be much slower than your time at the range. This is a proven fact even with the best of shooters. At the range you are concentrating on accuracy, speed of the draw and where the target is. If you are busy ordering food for the family you are distracted and not as aware of whats going on around you like you are at the range. Just because you are uber fast at the range does not mean your reaction time in McD's will be the same. In addition you have to worry about innocent bystanders, collateral damage in the event you miss (kids birthday party directlly behind the bad guy) people screaming and yealling... etc etc

    I hope to do the best I can if something ever happens, hope to make the right decisions in a split second, and hope to have accuracy and speed on my side. I train a lot, train more yet I have no way to forsee how an attack would turn out in a crowded place like a restaurant. I can only hope my training pays and and hope to come out on top if something bad ever happens and I need to use my CCW.