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It is a common misconception that unarmed martial art techniques are not considered deadly force in the United States. Very often they are. And not just punching to the head or the like. Did you know that even joint locks at the elbow knee or ankle can be considered deadly force under most law in the US?

Self defense lawyer Andrew Branca explains in his segment of the American Warrior Society podcast here. Go to about the seven and a half minute mark and listen to his case of the week segment.

https://americanwarriorshow.libsyn.com/you-ask-we-answer-listen-qa

Peace favor your sword (mobile)
 

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Colorado has a revised statute that covers escalating physical force to match the threat level and the threshold for when deadly force is justified. It's a bit murky, but case law basically shows that going hands on can result in justifiable homicide without being tagged as excessive.
 

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I'm too fat to flee is my usual mantra, but after losing 40lbs I'm going to have to take a page out of WW's book. I'm too disabled to disengage.
that's my problem, or at least one of them. there is no more running for me at all, away or otherwise. At this point in my life, if I am forced to defend myself in public, I know it will get messy, both physically and legally.

If I cant walk away or talk my way out of it, then I'll have to fight my way out. Running away is a physical impossibility. And despite my training and experience, I recognize that I have a chronic disabling neurological disorder, as well as a bunch of joint issues. So If I'm forced to fight, I have a short window to "win" before my own health issues put me on the ground. And that means not holding anything back, using the most reliable and efficient skills I know. And those mean doing real damage. Which leads back to legal issues later.

I know that if that happens, when it goes to court it will be a lot of the other side pointing to my training, with my lawyer pointing at my medical records and disabled status.

And none of that sounds like a good time at all
 

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Even with ‘martial arts’ training you will not win a physical fight with a street hoodlum who’s literally been fighting all his life.
As a child growing up, incarcerated.
“Normal” people just lack that inclination towards violence.
Besides a lot of formal training is at the most partial/light contact.

That’s why Samual Colt built the ‘equalizer’.
I’m not going to physically engage an opponent with unknown skill.
I’m bringing a gun to a fist fight.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Even with 'martial arts' training you will not win a physical fight with a street hoodlum who's literally been fighting all his life.
Horse crap. All that does is help make sure the guy has the right mindset. Mine set can, and has, been trained many times.

Besides a lot of formal training is at the most partial/light contact.
So don't go to a school that only teaches tag sparring. Plenty of them available and they're easy to find. :rolleyes:

Peace favor your sword (mobile)
 
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Even with 'martial arts' training you will not win a physical fight with a street hoodlum who's literally been fighting all his life.
As a child growing up, incarcerated.
"Normal" people just lack that inclination towards violence.
We can just agree to disagree....
 
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Horse crap. All that does is help make sure the guy has the right mindset. Mine set can, and has, been trained many times.

So don't go to a school that only teaches tag sparring. Plenty of them available and they're easy to find. :rolleyes:
Surprise surprise, people don't like getting hit.
 
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Finally, a topic I know a little about.

This is a topic many don't think about and glad lklawson brought it up. I am 44 years old, and although I have some training from a previous law enforcement job, I know my hand to hand game was/is lacking. So about 7-8 months ago I joined a local JiuJitsu gym. Why? Well, JiuJitsu has some advantages over other forms of martial arts:

1. Most people don't know what the hell it even is, so if you are defending yourself physically , they often make mistakes that allow the JiuJitsu practitioner a possible advantage. This happens in the gym all the time with new people who come in. Regardless of strength, they find out with the higher belts that strength means nothing and usually the higher belt toys with the young strong opponent till they 'gas out' after a minute and then the higher belt sinks in a choke or arm/ leg lock of some kind.

2. Most people who will physically assault you are between the ages of 16-26. As stated, they have years of experience fighting and are pretty good at it. The reason is they usually have some wrestling background in there game (remember thugs don't always drop out of school quickly) and if any of you used to wrestle or fought with a wrestler, you know its not fun. Takedowns are key here and that just it, many thugs don't have to know a lot of their previous wrestling moves, they just need to know a few good takedowns, they do them to the unsuspecting victim and they get top mount and literally pound them into oblivion. JiuJitsu has a whole array of both takedown defenses but also takedowns themselves. It is a form of wrestling its self and again provides an advantage. The over confident young person too often sticks there neck out during their takedowns for a nice choke to be sunk in :fight:. Also, it teaches choke defenses and escapes. Another item the bad guys like to use on victims.

3. JiuJitsu's whole premise is the smaller opponent can submit a larger, stronger opponent. It works. Come on in and watch the 130 lb. guy/ girl submit a 250lb gorilla. Its wild. This is probably JiuJitsu's biggest advantage (and Swaga points to it) and thats you can actually practice the moves in real sparring and drilling exercises. I think learning how to strike well is important too, but the human body can only take so many punches, even in sparring, before you are done both physically, mentally and the damage that can cause. jiujitsu doesn't have that same issue because you don't punch each other repeatedly. This is why people in there 50's are still on the mats rolling around. Brain damage is pretty rare in this martial art.

OK, what are some disadvantages?

1. JiuJitsu is really only good for one-on-one engagement. However, there are ways to lock someone up and have your gun hand free to address the other threats you may be facing. But its important to realize that the assailants friends may not appreciate you suddenly choking out their buddy and they usually don't stand there and watch while in 6 second, there friend passes out. The jiujitsu practitioner has to knows its strengths and weaknesses.

2. It brutal and people literally don't like when its used on someone. There is a video, well lots of them actually, were someone who either knows a lot of jiujitsu or enough to get an advantage, they use it and the friends or people watching freak out. One in particular is a young guy picks a fight with another young guy and the aggressor gets stuck in a rear naked choke. As he is about to pass out his friends dive in and save him but the aggressor starts yelling "yo! why the F did you choke me?" or some other nonsense. It ended the fight but people think its is unfair:confused:. Something to remember in our video laden world.

Just a few quick thoughts.

BZ
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Finally, a topic I know a little about.

This is a topic many don't think about and glad lklawson brought it up. I am 44 years old, and although I have some training from a previous law enforcement job, I know my hand to hand game was/is lacking. So about 7-8 months ago I joined a local JiuJitsu gym. Why? Well, JiuJitsu has some advantages over other forms of martial arts:

1. Most people don't know what the hell it even is, so if you are defending yourself physically , they often make mistakes that allow the JiuJitsu practitioner a possible advantage. This happens in the gym all the time with new people who come in. Regardless of strength, they find out with the higher belts that strength means nothing and usually the higher belt toys with the young strong opponent till they 'gas out' after a minute and then the higher belt sinks in a choke or arm/ leg lock of some kind.

2. Most people who will physically assault you are between the ages of 16-26. As stated, they have years of experience fighting and are pretty good at it. The reason is they usually have some wrestling background in there game (remember thugs don't always drop out of school quickly) and if any of you used to wrestle or fought with a wrestler, you know its not fun. Takedowns are key here and that just it, many thugs don't have to know a lot of their previous wrestling moves, they just need to know a few good takedowns, they do them to the unsuspecting victim and they get top mount and literally pound them into oblivion. JiuJitsu has a whole array of both takedown defenses but also takedowns themselves. It is a form of wrestling its self and again provides an advantage. The over confident young person too often sticks there neck out during their takedowns for a nice choke to be sunk in :fight:. Also, it teaches choke defenses and escapes. Another item the bad guys like to use on victims.

3. JiuJitsu's whole premise is the smaller opponent can submit a larger, stronger opponent. It works. Come on in and watch the 130 lb. guy/ girl submit a 250lb gorilla. Its wild. This is probably JiuJitsu's biggest advantage (and Swaga points to it) and thats you can actually practice the moves in real sparring and drilling exercises. I think learning how to strike well is important too, but the human body can only take so many punches, even in sparring, before you are done both physically, mentally and the damage that can cause. jiujitsu doesn't have that same issue because you don't punch each other repeatedly. This is why people in there 50's are still on the mats rolling around. Brain damage is pretty rare in this martial art.

OK, what are some disadvantages?

1. JiuJitsu is really only good for one-on-one engagement. However, there are ways to lock someone up and have your gun hand free to address the other threats you may be facing. But its important to realize that the assailants friends may not appreciate you suddenly choking out their buddy and they usually don't stand there and watch while in 6 second, there friend passes out. The jiujitsu practitioner has to knows its strengths and weaknesses.

2. It brutal and people literally don't like when its used on someone. There is a video, well lots of them actually, were someone who either knows a lot of jiujitsu or enough to get an advantage, they use it and the friends or people watching freak out. One in particular is a young guy picks a fight with another young guy and the aggressor gets stuck in a rear naked choke. As he is about to pass out his friends dive in and save him but the aggressor starts yelling "yo! why the F did you choke me?" or some other nonsense. It ended the fight but people think its is unfair:confused:. Something to remember in our video laden world.

Just a few quick thoughts.

BZ
And there are legal ramifications.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 
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Now the Rear Naked Choke hold - that one I like :D

 

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Discussion Starter #13

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Yep, JiuJitsu and judo share some moves.

BZ
Because BJJ is an outgrowth of Judo.

In contrast with what most BJJ practitioners state, many Judoka hold that BJJ is simply a different interpretation of practicing Judo, much the way that Kosen Judo, Freestyle Judo, or Danzan Ryu Ju Jutsu is. Some even joke that "BJJ" stands for "Basically Just Judo" (instead of "Brazilian Ju Jitsu"). :D

Personally, as a Judoka myself... I don't care. I can see both sides and am perfectly comfortable arguing either side of the debate: BJJ is simply a unique style of Judo OR BJJ is now a distinct martial art and separate from its parent art. <shrug>

It's also worth noting that Hadaka Jime is not unique to the Judo/BJJ tradition, or even to the Asian martial arts. Humans been choke'n humans long as there wuz humans. ;)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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Because BJJ is an outgrowth of Judo.

In contrast with what most BJJ practitioners state, many Judoka hold that BJJ is simply a different interpretation of practicing Judo, much the way that Kosen Judo, Freestyle Judo, or Danzan Ryu Ju Jutsu is. Some even joke that "BJJ" stands for "Basically Just Judo" (instead of "Brazilian Ju Jitsu"). :D

Personally, as a Judoka myself... I don't care. I can see both sides and am perfectly comfortable arguing either side of the debate: BJJ is simply a unique style of Judo OR BJJ is now a distinct martial art and separate from its parent art. <shrug>

It's also worth noting that Hadaka Jime is not unique to the Judo/BJJ tradition, or even to the Asian martial arts. Humans been choke'n humans long as there wuz humans. ;)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Not my intention to start any debate over this. Just we cross train over the two and the gym I'm at also does catch wrestling moves. Good Lord those are some nasty submissions in that style.

You've probably heard this but Judo is the fine art of hitting someone with a planet:rotfl:
BZ
 

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Maybe, but check out this video of how well this officer pins a suspect with no blows or hits by using basic top mount techniques.


Hard to argue police brutality when all he did was pin the suspect.

BZ
You need to go back and listen to the Case of the Week as referenced in the OP. It wasn't about police, and it discussed more than simple pinning.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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Not my intention to start any debate over this. Just we cross train over the two and the gym I'm at also does catch wrestling moves. Good Lord those are some nasty submissions in that style.
I've republished a number of antique catch wrestling manuals. PDF's are free, treeware is available and inexpensive, and reflow ePub versions are about $2.

http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/lawson

You've probably heard this but Judo is the fine art of hitting someone with a planet:rotfl:
BZ
<nods> I find it amusing. :)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

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Depending on where you live obstruction of the air way is deadly force. Bouncers favorite move is a choke hold. Its not allowed here unless you can justify deadly force. Last count I heard in training was 350 cases in ND of people being charged with aggravated assault for this. My view is if you try to choke me I'm going to end you or at least try. If you succeed I'm going to shoot you after I get up. Did I mention I really hate that move :shooting:
 
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