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You may think the military rifle round upgrade is pointless Ajole but the 5.56 x 45 round was too big of a compromise for a main military rifle when we left 7.62 x 51. We should have went with a rifle round that had a caliber of 6.5 to 7 millimeter and had at least a 100 grain bullet that had a muzzle velocity of around 2,650 to 2,900 feet per second. The 5.56 bullet is too light and small and less effective. (Take note that I did not say it was an ineffective round.) Almost all intermediate rifle rounds beat 5.56 x 45 in putting hostiles out of a fight.
So....the Russians saw our "less effective" round, and copied it with the 5.45x39 because....why?

It wasn't a compromise. It was the target. And EVERYONE wanted to leave the x51 behind, but they couldn't because the US Army REMF brass insisted it be the MG ammo of choice. And then secretly developed a rifle for it. If the Brits had had their way, they would have had a 7.2 mm/.280, But the US thought it was too weak for MG's. Of course, that's the same US that insisted the GI rifle be X51, despite every test showing the other ammo...like, EVERY other ammo....to be better.

The .223 was used because the .222 Remington was on the shelf, it was easy to get the velocity desired, and parts like barrels and such were available. As development went on, they hurried and pushed and didn't want to slow things down by changing in mid stream...and besides, there was no need, in testing the round had it all. And it did well in the jungle too, BTW.

Then, on accuracy tests, you could get double the numbers of riflemen shooting expert, than with the .308. So...big bullets, some hits, or small bullets twice as many that hit the target, and 3 times as many in the load out?

Sorry. It's total and complete BS that the 5.56 wasn't good enough, and anyone that has looked at real military tactics...not these stupid patrols, not the police action BS, not convoy protection through enemy controlled areas, but the kind of war where you take and hold ground, and bring the pain to the enemy in large indiscriminate bombing and shelling operations designed to reduce the enemy to impotence, can see that we are asking the rifleman to do things he shouldn't be doing, and THAT is the problem, not the bullet.

So yes...if you insist on sending people out into no mans land like in WW1, it's good to get them a weapon that will work better.

But the BETTER answer is...stop sending people out there! It's pointless! It accomplishes nothing! And we've seen that and known that since Vietnam, but for some politically expedient BS reason...we keep doing it.

And the fact is, a bigger bullet in a shoulder fired rifle isn't going to help. They will just step up the IED's, use more mortars, rockets and such...and our guys will still be complaining they can't hit the bad guys as they are too far away.
 

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Discussion Starter · #62 · (Edited)
It's too bad America did not go with the .280 British (7.2 x 44 millimeter) round. They could have just used a lighter bullet than the 130–140 grain with the round (around a 120 grain bullet) and had a great intermediate rifle cartridge. .308 Winchester would likely never have been adopted into the military and the heavy long range marksman rifles likely would have stayed with 30-06.
 
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I like the idea of the 7 mm, at that diameter the weights would have been better ballistically, and like you said, a bit more speed from that lighter bullet would be a good thing.

We could have called it .280 Government, pretended it was American, and kept the brass happy.
Heck, they could have gone full 7 mm-08, but that still would have been more than needed, and heavy.

There’s a lot of things they could have done, but the brass were thinking shooting at people in brick buildings at 300-500 yards from across a pasture, or using the full auto as a way to handle groups in the open; they didn’t really see the changing battlefield well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #64 · (Edited)
Here is a picture I found of the new prototype 6.8 millimeter General Purpose Cartridge. On the right is the 5.56 x 45, the middle is .308 Winchester and the left is the new 6.8 millimeter round.

New Military round against 7.62 and 5.56.jpg


Edit: The new 6.8 millimeter round is on the right. The 5.56 x 45 is on the left. The new 6.8 millimeter casing looks about 55 millimeters in length.
 
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Here is a picture I found of the new prototype 6.8 millimeter General Purpose Cartridge. On the right is the 5.56 x 45, the middle is .308 Winchester and the left is the new 6.8 millimeter round.

View attachment 57507
That looks like an Azz-Kikr all the way around :D
TON of powder and a better BC on the round, presumably.
I'd have thought you changed the mistake by now @1024Megabytes :rotfl:
 

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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
Or did you realize it when you looked back and lost your post (platoon)
The only army I served in was God's Army. I served for two years over twenty years ago.

For work I currently have a job as a contractor for the United States Air Force. But the work I do to earn my living is nothing in sacrifice compared to the Marines or the infantry in the Army.
 

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The only army I served in was God's Army. I served for two years over twenty years ago.

For work I currently have a job as a contractor for the United States Air Force. But the work I do to earn my living is nothing in sacrifice compared to the Marines or the infantry in the Army.
Ya you dont get. You would of made an excellent officer
 

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The only army I served in was God's Army. I served for two years over twenty years ago.

For work I currently have a job as a contractor for the United States Air Force. But the work I do to earn my living is nothing in sacrifice compared to the Marines or the infantry in the Army.
It's a grunt joke about the junior butter bar losing his platoon in the field over a lack of navigation skills, nothing personal.
Ya you dont get. You would of made an excellent officer
Leave him alone dumbass.
 

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It's a grunt joke about the junior butter bar losing his platoon in the field over a lack of navigation skills, nothing personal. Leave him alone dumbass.
I was just funnin
 

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It's a grunt joke about the junior butter bar losing his platoon in the field over a lack of navigation skills, nothing personal. Leave him alone dumbass.
We had a lazy old Platoon Sgt, when we set up a perimeter one time in training, they had given us a pile of signal poppers, arty sims and trip wires, so we had booby trapped the crap out of the AO, including leaving very specific routes of egress. So after dark, the Plt Sgt comes bopping out to us, yelling where are you? And setting off every freaking one of the little toe popper types, as we sat in our fighting positions and let him walk past, to hit the arty sims we had put out in front of us...Holy crap, was he pissed.

Couldn't do squat though...he had broken just about every one of our orders about sound and light discipline, and hadn't done diddly regarding setting us up and lining us out, so it was all on him.
 
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Here is a picture I found of the new prototype 6.8 millimeter General Purpose Cartridge. On the right is the 5.56 x 45, the middle is .308 Winchester and the left is the new 6.8 millimeter round.

View attachment 57507

Edit: The new 6.8 millimeter round is on the right. The 5.56 x 45 is on the left. The new 6.8 millimeter casing looks about 55 millimeters in length.
What happened to the polymer cased telescoping round design? Seemed like that would save a lot of weight for logistics purposes.

I'm all for getting our guys a more potent round. 5.56 might be fine against unarmored afghan tribesmen. But we're woefully unprepared for a near-peer conflict with China and their allies.

The bigger round will also help in putting holes in drones or other emerging semi-autonomous battlefield hardware that is not armored.
 

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Discussion Starter · #80 ·
I'm all for getting our guys a more potent round. 5.56 might be fine against unarmored afghan tribesmen. But we're woefully unprepared for a near-peer conflict with China and their allies.

The bigger round will also help in putting holes in drones or other emerging semi-autonomous battlefield hardware that is not armored.
Looking at the new 6.8 millimeter General Purpose Cartridge design I really do not see much advantages to it over the 7.62 x 51. Bullet drop might be a little less than the 7.62 millimeter at longer ranges but that is it. I read the bullet weight on the 6.8 millimeter round is 140 grains. Bullet weight on 7.62 x 51 is 147 grain. They should have went with about 120 grain bullets in my opinion.

Maybe nothing is set yet and they are still experimenting but to me it just looks like someone just trying to make $$$ off of a government contract. They should have just went back to 7.62 x 51 if they are going to go with a 140 grain bullet on the 6.8 millimeter round.
 
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