Westgate shopping mall attack Nairobi, Kenya

Discussion in 'CCW & Open Carry' started by SWAGA, Nov 21, 2014.

  1. SWAGA

    SWAGA No longer broke... Lifetime Supporter

    I watched this documentary last night.
    Apart from interviews with survivors it's all CCTV with occasional footage which makes it eery to watch.
    4 gunmen kill 70+ people during an attack on the 21st September 2013
    Very popular with the expatriate crowd, some American survivors.
    The Kenyan SWAT teams are standing idle outside uncertain about chain of command and whatever.
    A small group of plain clothes Police and two civilians( Kenyan CCW holders) decide to enter and look for survivors. A truly heroic deed.

    While watching you realize that it being in a different continent is irrelevant, when you see the footage it may as well be AnyTown, USA.

    Despite the fact that it's gruesome it is very interesting to watch and I would encourage you to do so if you haven't yet.
    It's also a good conversation starter about CCW and escape plans.
    I was talking to my wife about the procedures of going into lock down in an active shooting scenario and the importance of getting out before that happens.

    Last edited: Nov 21, 2014
  2. cicpup

    cicpup Resident PITA Supporting Member

    70+ dead. So is Kenya completely over reacting and trying to ban EBRs too?

  3. SWAGA

    SWAGA No longer broke... Lifetime Supporter

    No it's a corrupt to the core Third world country struggling with ethnic tribal struggles and militant Islam...why?

    Besides that wasn't the point of my original post.
    It's a disturbing albeit interesting documentary from a unique viewpoint.
    Interesting because it could have been anywhere. Not just some distant country with their own problems.

    The Boston bombers could have easily done the same.
    If I ever got caught in a scenario like that I'd be a little undergunned with my 5+1 and one spare mag.
    Creates an interesting discussion (again) as to how it's impossible to be prepared for everything as you can't go about your daily life carrying a ballistic vest with trauma plates and an EBR.

    But I could have taken out two.....I hope.
    Concealed carry = the opportunity to fight your way to a bigger gun.
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2014
  4. cicpup

    cicpup Resident PITA Supporting Member

    Can't be that bad. They got a mall.
  5. planosteve

    planosteve Lifetime Supporter

    SWAGA is right on the money about the corruption in African countries. You cannot do business without payments of some type to a government official. Tribal issues are also a big problem as several of the tribes have been going at each other for centuries.
  6. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

    NE Utah
    Kenya has what the Anti's would call "good" gun laws.

    In Kenya, private possession of fully automatic or semi-automatic assault weapons is prohibited.

    In Kenya, civilians are not allowed to possess automatic and semi-automatic self-loading military assault rifles of 7.62mm or 5.56mm calibre, or of any other calibre from time to time specified by the Minister, or firearms fitted with sound suppressors, or AK-47, G3 and MP5 and other similar firearms as may be specified by the Minister.

    In Kenya, the law requires that a record of the acquisition, possession and transfer of each privately held firearm be retained in an official register.

    In Kenya, private possession of handguns (pistols and revolvers) is permitted only under licence

    In Kenya, carrying a firearm in plain view in a public place is prohibited.

    In Kenya, carrying a concealed firearm in a public place is prohibited.

    And yet...none of those laws stopped the guys in that video from doing whatever they wanted to do.

    Go figure.:cool:
  7. RedRaptor22

    RedRaptor22 Member

    It is illegal in Kenya to own any type of firearm without a valid gun ownership license as spelled out under the Firearms Act (Cap. 114) Laws of Kenya. Anyone who is 12 years or older can apply to privately own a gun. However, such persons must provide in writing to the Chief Licensing Officer (CLO) stating genuine reason(s) for their need to privately own and carry a firearm. It remains at the discretion of the CLO to make a decision to award, deny or revoke a gun ownership license based on the reason(s) given.

    Anyone seeking to hold a gun license must pass the most stringent of background checks that probes into their past and present criminal, mental health and well as domestic violence records. Failure to pass one of these checks automatically bars one from being permitted to own a firearm. These checks are regularly repeated and must be continually passed for anyone to continue holding the gun license. Failure to pass any of these checks at any stage, means an automatic and immediate revocation of the issued license. Once licensed to own a gun, no permit is required in order to carry around a concealed firearm.
  8. SWAGA

    SWAGA No longer broke... Lifetime Supporter

    And this is relevant to a terrorist attack from Al-Shabaab how?

    Point is two permit holders went in with the few plain clothes police willing to do so and risked their lives to save others.
  9. cicpup

    cicpup Resident PITA Supporting Member

    What the hell is with you and your "on topic" crusade lately?
  10. Liberty

    Liberty Shhh! Lifetime Supporter

    Apparently we can't topic hijack because there's guns involved. Oh wait....

  11. RedRaptor22

    RedRaptor22 Member

    Yeah, and I thought my post was on topic...being a basic rundown on their very strict gun laws that enabled a few terrorist to basically have their way in an entire mall full of unarmed people.

    We have shootings here, but you will probably never see 70 people dead from armed terrorists on foot, maybe california or chicago or something, but not in the actual US.
  12. SWAGA

    SWAGA No longer broke... Lifetime Supporter

    Seriously, is it too much too ask to have a normal intelligent discussion once in a while?

    If you look at that docu with a little bit more then average subject knowledge you have:

    • Soft target
    • Multiple active shooter scenario
    • No interest in hostages or negotiations
    • Escape routes closed
    • Hiding in locations with no other exits
    • Random victims
    • Random people let go
    • Inadequate law enforcement response
    • Essentially volunteers entering the building
    • Civilians with carry permits

    Just an interesting discussion as how to increase your survival chances in a similar situation.
    Just my personal opinion but I think the chances of getting caught up in something like this are exponentially higher then TEOTWAWKI, SHTF, Solar Eclipse zombies or the apocalypse and rapture.
    The United States are not well protected, inside or out.
    One of the last books I read by Clancy or similar was exactly about this: terror cells attacking multiple soft targets (read shopping malls) in a nationwide combined attack.
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2014
  13. cicpup

    cicpup Resident PITA Supporting Member

    Not at all. 99% of the threads on this forum drift a bit but usually end up back on topic. Well except for my thread last week that took a left turn on post #2 and never looked back. I just happened to notice a trend with you the last couple days across a few different threads. A request to return is one thing but IMO yours have been coming across more like a Mod command.

    Just a personal observation. I still love ya. No hard feelings I hope.

  14. Bull

    Bull Just a Man Supporting Member

    ImageUploadedByHi-Point Forum1416619025.304833.jpg ...............
  15. Liberty

    Liberty Shhh! Lifetime Supporter

    You must be new here. ROTFL

    I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's coming off like a mod dictate - I just think it's funny to watch you stay on topic with reasoned arguments. It's much more fun to derail serious discussions on purpose vs. us just normally doing it without thinking about it. It's much harder than it looks.
  16. tallbump

    tallbump Supporting Member

    That's why I am seriously considering carrying a back up gun, at least when the wife is with me. That way I can hand her one, and we can separate if need be. I can draw fire or advance while she hunkers down or retreats with the girls. It's also why I ignore our mall's no weapons sign.

    Luckily, I was a mall rat in my teens, so I know that place like the back of my hand, and it hasn't changed much, so I could get around there pretty well.

    I figure in most of these scenarios, especially with a lone gunman, they usually off themselves at the sign of resistance, so I am going to stand and fight while others run scared.

    My 2 biggest concerns are knowing where the shooter/shooters is/are if I can actually see them. Sound can do funny things, especially bouncing around inside. The other is being confronted by another good guy with a gun (we like our guns here in PA) or the police/first responders. I would hope they would give me the drop the gun command and enough time to react.

    I am definitely not a big fan of lock down, shelter in place, especially if I am carrying...which I pretty much always am.
  17. SWAGA

    SWAGA No longer broke... Lifetime Supporter

    Love ya Cic,

  18. ajole

    ajole Supporting Member

    NE Utah
    Yep, That's cool, and heroic.

    Point is, if more people had guns there, it may not have been a neccesity

    Gun free zones are only gun free until someone decides to ignore the law. Since, by definition, a criminal isn't going to follow the law, there's a pretty good chance that only the bad guy is going to have a gun there. Seems to be a dumb idea to me.
  19. planosteve

    planosteve Lifetime Supporter

    Gun free zone or what terrorists call a target rich environment.
  20. TopGas

    TopGas Member

    Even before the attack at the Westgate Mall in Kenya, I frequently thought of how easy it would be for a small group of individuals with dastardly intentions, to have their way with shoppers at any of the large malls here in the U.S.!

    Personally, I don't generally shop in these venues but my wife occasionally does and my oldest daughter worked for many years at the Mall of America in Bloomington MN. I frequently reminded her that the MoA was very high profile and at the current level of world-wide unrest, was not the best place to spend 8-10 hours a day! Hopefully, my constant reminders at least made her aware of the potential and made her do some pre-planning i.e. where to park her car, quickest way out etc. Fortunately, she no longer works there BUT does occasionally shop there.

    Anyway, I don't know if the standard U.S. "Mall Policy" is one of "Firearms Prohibited" but in the case of my local mall and the MoA, that IS the case!
    While I would like to think that the MoA has a top notch security force with aggressive incident response capability, the video posted on the MoA website leads me to believe otherwise.

    With the Holiday shopping season getting ready to burst into full swing, it won't surprise me in the slightest if the U.S. experiences some Westgate-like events before the end of the year. I certainly hope not but I won't be surprised.