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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Its an article on rules of engagement for CC and OC
http://www.personaldefensesolutions.net/Article-RulesEngage.pdf

I disagree with many of his points. Just because I may chose to carry a gun, doesn't mean I need to restrict myself from the places I frequent and the people I associate with. I feel like he is placing the responsibility of others to act within the law upon the gun owner. If I want to go to a bar to celebrate a friend's birthday, I should not feel discouraged from doing so just because bars can be the scene of fights (yes I know, in many states you cannot take a gun into a bar, but in CO you can).

Also he advocates a fairly strict retreat policy and a rigid escalation of force policy, even going so far as to say that if you carry a gun, you should also carry pepper spray. Rigid rules of escalation can lead to a missed opportunity to draw if necessary.

anyway, I wanna hear ya'lls thoughts
 

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as for his rules
1) ok ill give him that one
2) you have maybe seconds or less to run through all of these conditions
3a) i live in GA and i do not have to make any attempt to flee
3b) i need more time with the rest of it
4a) refer to 3A
4b) when it comes to handling unknown people on the streets, zero interaction is always best. say "please" is he serious...I wouldnt ask this person to do anything, I MAY TELL them how this situation will end if they fail to comply with MY DEMANDS.
5) duh, kinda. where is he going with this? is it, know your target and whats behind it/next to it/ etc.. he gets into morals and protecting bystanders....
and lastly these are his OPINIONS on how to handle these situations, and if it works for him then great. just my useless opinion enjoy..
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
yeah, i laughed when he mentioned "Please stop!". Ain't no "please's" coming out of my mouth in a situation like that.
 

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ive thought about carrying pepper spray, for those "i really dont feel like wasteing bullets on shooting your dumbass" sitautions.
i do think oc spray could be an asset in the right situations.
 

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Well first and foremost the article is Armed Senior Citizen, so you have to bear in mind the audience, that said I really can't find fault with the rules of engagement..nothing jumps out as beyond the pale, carrying a less lethal form of defense doesn't seem out of whack to me. I know alot odf people say the BG gets what he deserves if I shoot him, and please don't misunderstand I am prepared to shoot but am I prepared to live with taking a life? I don't know but if I can avoid finding out and stay safe that sounds like a win to me. I agree with him that good judgement is on the ccw holder and yes bomber that does include the places you go. Possibly who you hang with too, if that crowd makes using the weapon more likely it may mean some reconsideration on someones part. Just because making an attempt to flee isn't required by someones state doesn't mean it isn't a good idea. As the first paragraph of the article says "bullets can not be taken back" Machoness and bravado aside I don't know ..truly know...how killing someone would affect me, and as I said if it's me or them it will be them. However I agree it is LAST resort, if I can extracate myself with no one dying and no harm to me, thats what will happen always.

Edit to add:(posted before I was done..darn tab key!)

Also I think the article makes some good points about how the legal system will look at things AFTER a shooting, even if you are defending yourself. Not a bad checklist to go by..If you did all you could to avoid, flee, not escalate that will go a long way. If you "shoot first ask questions later" you may find you are the one answering the questions in court before you're sentenced.

That's my .02 cents.
 

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x2 on extrication without harm.

I am certain that the rest of your day/night will be much less stressfull if you pepper spray someone, then if you shoot someone.
 

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x2 on extrication without harm.

I am certain that the rest of your day/night will be much less stressfull if you pepper spray someone, then if you shoot someone.
it also seems a lot riskier to me... In terms of the BG getting you. Doesn't the OC spray have to get in the eyes, nose, or mouth to do any damage? And I hear a lot of sprays take a few seconds to kick in. So basically, unless you get really close, you have a floating cloud of trouble that has to hit the BG's face to do any damage, and might give him an opportunity to, say, knife you before the pain takes him out of action. Also, wind or rain might divert the spray.

Plus, a gun is a helluva lot more intimidating than a can of pepper spray. What kind of a BG would face down an armed victim in a fair fight? A gun would likely make him back off before shots were fired. Even if worst comes to worst, the gun seems a LOT surer method of stopping him in his tracks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
x2 on extrication without harm.

I am certain that the rest of your day/night will be much less stressfull if you pepper spray someone, then if you shoot someone.
unless of course the pepper spray doesn't work
 

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x2 on extrication without harm.

I am certain that the rest of your day/night will be much less stressfull if you pepper spray someone, then if you shoot someone.
I've been in situations were oc would have been an asset. rather than beat the he'll out of someone, one or two quick shots would have worked and with less chance of getting myself injured. ever had to deal with a violent drunk at 3 am......
i'm all for shoot first if the sitatuion requires it, but there are times when lethal force is not necessary.
there a millions of ways a situation can present with millions of variables.

as for the less stressfull part
1) pepper spray someone. then just walk away, it mantians your anonymity. or call LEO i have no idea why but you could
2) shoot someone. wait for police, ride to station house, fill out paperwork, tell the same story a dozen or more times, your weapon maybe held for evidence for a loooooonnnnggg time by people who may not be nice to it :'(. not much fun
 

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x2 on extrication without harm.

I am certain that the rest of your day/night will be much less stressfull if you pepper spray someone, then if you shoot someone.
I've been in situations were oc would have been an asset. rather than beat the he'll out of someone, one or two quick shots would have worked and with less chance of getting myself injured. ever had to deal with a violent drunk at 3 am......
i'm all for shoot first if the sitatuion requires it, but there are times when lethal force is not necessary.
there a millions of ways a situation can present with millions of variables.

as for the less stressfull part
1) pepper spray someone. then just walk away, it mantians your anonymity. or call LEO i have no idea why but you could
2) shoot someone. wait for police, ride to station house, fill out paperwork, tell the same story a dozen or more times, your weapon maybe held for evidence for a loooooonnnnggg time by people who may not be nice to it :'(. not much fun
In a violent robbery situation, I'd be willing to put up with being detained if it gave me a better chance of leaving unharmed.
 

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Thats true with violent robbery but the point I was making and the article too I think is that it's up to you a concealed carry person to be more aware of whats going on , leave places that look like troubles going to start etc. Let's face it not every encounter is going to be you standing over a shot person is it? But maybe a fist fight was discouraged with a blast of pepper spray and the gun never needed to be shown. I think the article if I read it corrctly was trying to say don't mistake your firearm for courage or a harm proof shield and be darn sure that's the step you want to take. I've been of the school that if I show you the weapon its cause I feel I am in immediate danger, its not about deterrence if it comes out in that situation it's being fired. My thinking here, using myself for example ..I'm right handed so I train would train with my non lethal with my left hand, several advantages to that...first and foremost non-lethal option, 2nd my gun hand is still free 3rd its a distration to the BG focusing attention away from my strong side.

I can't stress enough I haven't been in the military and I'm not LEO. I've never killed anybody and don't want to if I can help it, for me , not them. I am prepared to, as I said before, but if I am aware and have options why not use them? I'm not advocating putting yourself in danger trying not to use the gun, but I am saying not every encounter is going to or has to be a deadly force encounter if as the article suggests we keep our awareness and wits about us.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
hp45, I can't argue with that.

the thing about choosing where you hang around is that to me, its a restriction of my freedom. I like what I like, and as long as I am not breaking the law, or encouraging others to do so, then I should not feel restricted from doing those things just because someone may choose to start a fight. I mean, how many convenience stores do you go to in a month? Convenience stores have a huge violent crime rate, yet we don't normally avoid those situations. I have been to a lot of punk concerts and have seen a lot of fights. But my SA is sufficient enough to keep my butt out of the way and just enjoy the show. (quick side note, most venues will not let you bring a weapon inside anyway, so talk of using a firearm in a venue like that is irrelevant). I think that people in general are quick to judge things they don't understand.
 

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No I get you bomber and I understand, I wasn't telling you personaaly to not hang out with who you like . I was just saying if person A is hanging out with group B and finding weapons coming into play regularly, or situations that are making person A consider pulling his weapon, perhaps it's time to look for group C.

Yes I do frequent convenience stores however I can point to many times when something didn't feel or look right and I decided to get my pop further down the road. Thats the sort of thing I think the article is talking about learn to start relying on your instincts and don't lean on your gun to get you out of trouble, or dull that instinct. As far as concerts I never liked the sex pistols so never got into punk, although I did go to a clash concert, but mostly when I was concert age, the ones I went to were to say the least far to mellow to worry about throwing punches, heck I didn't even smoke myself and am sure I got contact highs :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
No I get you bomber and I understand, I wasn't telling you personaaly to not hang out with who you like . I was just saying if person A is hanging out with group B and finding weapons coming into play regularly, or situations that are making person A consider pulling his weapon, perhaps it's time to look for group C.

Yes I do frequent convenience stores however I can point to many times when something didn't feel or look right and I decided to get my pop further down the road. Thats the sort of thing I think the article is talking about learn to start relying on your instincts and don't lean on your gun to get you out of trouble, or dull that instinct. As far as concerts I never liked the sex pistols so never got into punk, although I did go to a clash concert, but mostly when I was concert age, the ones I went to were to say the least far to mellow to worry about throwing punches, heck I didn't even smoke myself and am sure I got contact highs :D
yes, I can agree with you on that. I see your point now. It makes good sense.

usually the fights that break out are just part of the scene. no hard feelings, just boys being boys (or girls, but those fights are usually pretty nasty). I have been to more than a few shows where the band ends up fighting someone in the crowd. all in good fun :D
 

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I haven't been to a club in a couple years because there's too much fighting and dont
alwaays have a designated driver.i had a bouncer at whisky river start trouble with me
as we were leaving and i told him to shut the up im waiting on someone.well in no time
there was another bouncer walked up an got in my face well over my face he was about
freakin 6ft9 im 6ft3 and he started threating me so i stuck my middle finger in his face and
told him he better get the f out my face so before i knew it when i was about to leav at the
door,about 6 of them ganked me from behind,they had a hard time taking me down but i took
one with me in a real good choke.they couldnt over power me alway to the ground so they yanked
my leg out and twisted both my legs till they tore my knee caps then the cop gets me takes me to
his car,i then raised hell at him for cuffing me and telling him my brother was a cop and i was suing
the club.he said i know your brother and he just wanted to get me out of there.the reason for this story
is that if you are allowed to take a gun in a club your prob going to use it,atleast pullvit anyway.if you
know there's most likely to be trouble where your going,it's best to know how to fight instead of oc.only
reason i didn't kick their butts is because i know of their camaras because my brother is friends with the
owner and i didnt want to be in the wrong.
 

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I think all newbies should serioiusly think about these things. What would happen if? Would compliance with the perp be better than brandishing? How many shots? Any innocents in line of fire? Is there anything I can do to avoid it? Can I live with it?

Don't wait until you get to the restaurant with your wife tonight armed or unarmed. Think about it now. Which places do you frequent and know well? What would you do if you were removed from the scene to go to another room or out back? (The "kiss of death" for killing you.) Where and how would you call 911? What are your responsibilities? There are a number of situations that could arrise at each place.

Also, are you aware of your surroundings? Who is loitering? Anyone sitting in cars not doing anything but watching other people come and go to the restaurant or store? Anything look out of place or suspicious?

I know you "pros" have thought about this, but when you only have nine shots before reload, and when the adrenaline is rushing and the heart pounding, and the hand not too steady; (This is NOT a training situation or a Saturday morning at the gun range.) things will happen very differently even if planned. Always try to de-escalate when possible; but, when forced to the unthinkable, you only have a moment (nano seconds?) to act, react or respond. That is the committment you take on when you accept the license to conceal carry. Not all classes tell you that. It is easy to run various scenarios for your home, but what do you do when carrying in the cold cruel world? (shrugs in a friendly manner) Just a thought. (smiles) RL
 
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