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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Looking at Aimsurplus recently, I came across this.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Finnish_Mosin_Nagant_28_76_7.62x54R_Marksmanship_Rifle.html



$995... and I can honestly say, as crazy as it sounds, if I had $1000 to blow on guns right now, without hesitation THIS is what I would go for. It may be the most beautiful bolt action rifle, to my tastes, that I've ever seen :cry2:

The lines of the stock and the sights (rear diopter, front hooded) bring to mind my old biathalon trainer, through which I have put more lead downrange in my short life than I will probably ever be able to do in the REST of my life, with all my guns combined. I have always had an appreciation for bolt actions, their simplicity and reliability - ESPECIALLY the Nagant design, but that appreciation has always been a curiosity at best. The same way I appreciate a beautiful blonde, but don't really care for them the way I do brunettes and redheads. But this is like seeing Grace Kelly for the first time. I think I'm in love.

Somebody loan me a grand.
 

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looks really nice, but i couldn't do it because i'm a cheap bastard, and probably pick up a savage .308 and save the remaining cash.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Oh believe me, I'm a cheap bastard too. I mean we are on a hipoint site :angel:

Let it never be said that I'm NOT a Scrooge MacDuck of a miser. But man. There are dozens of firearms I want. I could have 2-3 of them in one fell swoop with the price of that Mosin. Still, if I had the cash for that, I wouldn't think twice. Ok so that's a lie, but I'd probably buy it. Maybe. I think. :embarrassed2:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Oh man... I just want to at least shoot one! A target Mosin with match trigger, diopter sights, palm swell grip in the stock, and that big square foreend? :'(

Yes it does look like an Anschutz. :(
 
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Yeah, I'd put that money down in a heartbeat. The actual 91/30 sniper version rifles go for around $1000 nowadays anyway... and man, are they nice.
 

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Never in a million years, no. A relic of a rile in a fancy wrapper is still a relic of a rifle.

I own a Mosin and it's "alright," but I wouldn't consider picking up more of them. Not to mention one with that type of price tag!

I'd be picking up a Bushmaster (for just slightly more) without thinking twice. Or, two "really nice" weapons for the same money and feeling a heckuva lot better about doing so.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
An AR IS a .22 A .22 with a fancy stock and some extra powder behind it is still a .22 :devilsidesmile:

I have to contend with what you consider "more rifle." To me, no AR in the world is "more rifle" than than even a $100 Mosin. More expensive, yes. More capacity, yes. More rifle? HAH

I'm willing to bet that one of those Fin marksmanship rifles is as accurate as any AR in the price range to 200 yards, moreso than many. Shall we go out further? What about 300 yards? 400? How is an AR going to stack up against a match tuned 7.62x54R bolt action at 500 yards? 1000? How much energy is a 5.56 going to have at 1000 yards? How fast is it going to be traveling? Certain types of 7.62R have been measured at 1000J at 1000yards, still going supersonic. They have taken just about every type of big game on the planet, including polar bears.

You can get different types of rifle for sure. But realistically, you're not going to get much MORE rifle at any price range, and surely not under $1000. Go up to 50bmg or .338 lapua, then you've got more rifle. .223? Pfft.
 

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An AR IS a .22 A .22 with a fancy stock and some extra powder behind it is still a .22 :devilsidesmile:

I have to contend with what you consider "more rifle." To me, no AR in the world is "more rifle" than than even a $100 Mosin. More expensive, yes. More capacity, yes. More rifle? HAH

I'm willing to bet that one of those Fin marksmanship rifles is as accurate as any AR in the price range to 200 yards, moreso than many. Shall we go out further? What about 300 yards? 400? How is an AR going to stack up against a match tuned 7.62x54R bolt action at 500 yards? 1000? How much energy is a 5.56 going to have at 1000 yards? How fast is it going to be traveling? Certain types of 7.62R have been measured at 1000J at 1000yards, still going supersonic. They have taken just about every type of big game on the planet, including polar bears.

You can get different types of rifle for sure. But realistically, you're not going to get much MORE rifle at any price range, and surely not under $1000. Go up to 50bmg or .338 lapua, then you've got more rifle. .223? Pfft.
Just because ".223" has ".22" in it doesn't mean they're the same round, or even close. Honestly, I can't even believe you're trying to argue that point.

Okay, you want to talk about yardage--that's GREAT. Let's talk about battle fields, then. I'm interested in urban combat. Your bolt-action Mosin that set you back $1,000.00 and holds 3 rounds in the magazine is NOT going to get you very far, needless to say. Distance means nothing in that setting. And let's be honest: "urban" settings is where the world is headed, and most of it is there already. I'll take a very accurate AR with a high-capacity magazine and live to see another day. You had one in the chamber and 3 in the magazine...5 targets shooting at you. Not very good odds, eh?
 

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Wow, we got ourselves a spirited debate going on here.... :D

Honestly, a Mosin, IMHO, is still a Mosin. I could buy 10 91/30's for the same price, or less. So, say I buy a 91/30 for $99.00 and put a match grade trigger and a bull barrel on it. Then I custom make a stock out of a blank and upgrade to the turn down bolt and upgrade the sights.... How much do you think I'd be out cost wise for those types of upgrades? I can tell you it'd be WAY less than the asking price for this particular gun. Worth it? That's for you to decide.

Personally, I'd like the sense of accomplishment in making a $100.00 battle rifle into a bad arse target gun capable of 1/4" groups at 200+ yards. YMMV, but that's just my $0.02.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
That's funny. I could have sworn I saw my buddy shooting .22lr out of his AR, without changing barrels, course I could be mistaken cause if they're "not even close" to the same then that would be ludicrous wouldn't it? Hmm :-??

How much urban combat have you been in RD? You fancy yourself getting in some? I don't. Even if I did, I would be hesitant to stake my life on a piece of plastic and aluminum that has proven nothing over the course of it's service life so much as that it's taken over 50 years to work MOST of the kinks out of it. MOST. It's still a .22 caliber pea shooter that can't bust a grape, can't fire through foliage, can't fight even light crosswinds, has the uncanny ability to penetrate an armored helmet and only retain enough velocity and material afterward to give the wearer a nasty little scrape, and the tendency to foul itself by belching it's own emissions into it's innards. It's the Hendrix of automatic rifles.

And talk about fragile! While Aluminum is a great metal for use in SOME applications, rifle receivers, MILITARY rifle receivers, in my opinion, is not one of them. It's too soft, too fragile, and the metallurgy of the material is such that "forging," as so many manufacturers proudly boast, does NOTHING for inherent strength, hardness and stability. Forging aluminum does not rearrange the grain structure of the metal the way it does steel. Neither forging nor heat treating do ANYTHING for aluminum's strength - only variations in alloying can change it's inherent softness. And then you simply end up with billets of metal that are varying shades of soft. Buttery soft. Downy soft. Kashmir soft. Patch of clover soft... None of it can save the gun from having a hole knocked in the receiver if it catches a pointy rock at the right angle when dropped. I've seen that happen.

I've shot plenty of .223. Most of it from Savages and Rugers, but plenty from a Bushmaster M4 clone. It's a dandy medium range varmint gun. But at best, that's what .223 is, a varmint round. Best used on prairie dogs. It was put into service as the result of a BRILLIANT WWII survey finding that implied the following: Unaimed fire is responsible for more casualties(pay attention to the wording there) than AIMED fire. Therefore smaller caliber ammo that a soldier can carry more of, and fire more of, faster, will cause more casualties.

Now, I'd like to know how they came to this conclusion personally. Did they go around asking the wounded Krauts in their hospital beds, as they were being treated "Herr Schuler, you have been shot in the torso. If you please, could you tell us if the Allied soldier who WOUNDED you... was he AIMING for you, or just covering up and firing blindly?" What response could the man possibly give, other than "err... Ich habe keine Anung???"

There are really no good arguments for this weapon, or for this round, over .308 or 7.62x39, or 30.06, or any number of 30 caliber rounds. It was supposed to be more effective than .308. it was not, and it STILL is not. It was supposed to be cheaper to manufacture the weapons than the M14. With all the fiddling, retrofits, jury rigging, etc that has gone into the gun, that proved to be a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE miscalculation, and it's still costing us millions to try and fix such a flawed system. It was supposed to give our troops an advantage in battle... what advantage? Carry more ammo at the same weight and put down a wall of little bitty bullets that are effective in room to room combat? Why then, don't we issue fully automatic .22lr calico sub machine guns? What advantage would the AR platform have over it in the situations in which it excels? Aftermarket parts?

How much urban combat do you envision yourself engaging in RD? I, personally, shoot at the range. I don't hunt, I don't engage in any sort of armed combat - I shoot paper targets. God forbid it's ever needed, but I have a Saiga .308 if I ever NEED a battle rifle. But I certainly wouldn't feel at a huge disadvantage with a 5 round 7.62x54R tack driver, if the situation ever presented itself.

Pardon my rant, there's absolutely nothing personal to it, I just have a bit of contempt for that particular rifle/round combination.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Primal... honestly, what in the world would I do with 10 mosins. I could really only conceivably shoot two at a time, and even that doesn't seem like a great idea :D

My point in all this is that a military grade target rifle for just under 1k doesn't seem like as bad of a deal as some would claim. A commercially manufactured rifle of comparable quality and features would probably run over $1000.

And where am I going to find a match grade trigger, diopter sights, etc to transform my $100 relic? If those parts actually exist on the market, it might be something I'd consider.
 

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Well slap my a$$ and call my Suzy! Yet another guy who needs to write a damn novel to get his point across. Great--now I need to sort through all this garbage for an hour before I can even start typing a response :tongue2:

Wow...that's funny!! I thought you needed a conversion kit to shoot .22lr out of an AR! Rimfire...centerfire. 36 grain...80 grain. Yep--those look the same :yes:

Oh yeah--I engage in gun-fights on the mean streets of Camillus on a daily basis. If SHTF, it's most likely going to be in an urban setting. THAT'S what I was getting at.

Gotcha--the AR is a total failure. That must be why it's been a main service rifle since the Vietnam war :idea: Lack of penetration? Can't put a hole in anything? Will just leave scrapes on it's target? Can't fire through brush? Why don't I stand you at 100yards out with a ficus in front of your marbles and test that theory, eh? Don't wanna play along with my little test? Can't understand why not...probably because you know you'd be just another statistic. Rifles like the Mosin bowed down to these newer rifles because combat slowly became less about distance and more about proximity.

Ah yes...aluminum bad. Another thing you'll see aluminum doing is not rusting. Not weighing twice as much as other metals making it hard to carry for long distances. And it's funny...I've yet to see "AR gore" in the form of receivers that break apart if you look at them funny. If you're going to go throwing your rifle down a rock-strewn ravine, you should be expectant that it's going to break. Dropping it on the ground and normal use, aluminum will stand up.

I get the feeling you're a "bigger is always better" kinda guy. "The .223 can't compare to .308, 30-06, 30-30..." Why not throw it up against a .50cal while were at it?! Let's compare apples to apples, shall we? The .223 is a great round for what it is, which is why it's so popular. I don't think AR's sell in the numbers they do because they're a poorly made rifle with a poorly designed round.

Okay, urban combat again--cool. Refer to above :) I shoot at the range, too, but I'm always prepared for a SHTF situation. And quite honestly, most ranges don't even go out past 100yards, so how much fun are you having with a 400yd rifle if you don't hunt? Furthermore, your math is horribly tarnished. I would love to see you use that "trusty-'ole," low-capacity, heavy and long bolt-action in a dire situation. I'd admire your bravery while I piled stones on your grave.
 

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Insulting a "novel" reply, making a bet about being able to shoot a man's nuts thru a ficus tree, and saying you'll be piling stones on his grave if he chooses the Mosin for $1K?
Relax, Chill, and everything will be ok...
 
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