[RACHGIER]

Who would of thought to read the manual

Another nightmare carbine. 🤣

 

[RACHGIER]

Remember…being called NATO doesn’t make it NATO, nor does actually BEING NATO spec make it +P.

The NATO spec is for velocity, not pressure. It can include 115 or 124 grain bullets, too.

Remember....he's been told this no less than a dozen times and doesn't give a fuck because he's convinced NATO is +p...

 

[RACHGIER]

Actually, it kinda does. It's just that SAAMI has no say in it.


Actually, NATO spec calls out both velocity and max pressure.

375 m/s minimum in their test barrel (I think it's 7" long or something)
Less than or equal to 2950 bar, which, after being adjusted for different measuring systems equates to 36,500 psi in SAAMI method (or 37,000 psi radial copper measure).

SAAMI max for 9mm Parabellum is 35,000, which is 1,500 psi less than max NATO spec but under the SAAMI max of 38,500 for +P. Anything falling between 35,000 and 38,500 would fall under SAAMI +P specs.

The confusion comes from the fact that the velocity is a required minimum which the pressure is a not-to-be-exceeded maximum. If the manufacturer can make the minimum velocity without exceeding SAAMI or CIP, then the NATO spec doesn't care. But NATO spec 9mm might exceed SAAMI max for standard pressure and you have no way to know if it does or doesn't. But NATO pressure spec does fall snugly in between SAAMI max for standard pressure and max for +P. Truthfully, this means that NATO spec 9mm probably is +P, you just don't have any way of knowing for sure.

So, actually, yes, 9mm NATO probably is +P most of the time.

Here's some off-site links:

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gigconceptsinc.com

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belom.army

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en.wikipedia.org

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en.wikipedia.org

And the long story short is, NATO 9mm ammo isn't truly +P because it's a 60/40 chance on the over/under of the SAAMI +P line and SAAMI themselves say its not really +P but it's warmer than the oldest 9mm handguns can handle.

 

[RACHGIER]

Given that the 124 grn NATO load is eerily similar to the original Imperial German load, I would expect any Luger w/ in spec springs to handle it.

We know that, but SAAMI likes to imply they know better than common sense because it's a civilian agency run by lobbyists that the federal government uses to regulate its citizenry with then play dumb when we complain. Kind of like how the NFPA sets industry standards for code enforcement that aren't technically legally binding but can and will be used against you in court even if your own local AHJ doesn't require their implementation.

 

[RACHGIER]

Not exactly. The short version is that the NATO spec puts max pressure over that of SAAMI max for standard pressure.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

And SAAMI sets industry standards based on the lobbyists and lawyers employed by the ammunition manufacturers...

Plus the bottom end of NATO ammo is under the SAAMI max, so it's not really +P. It's more +/- P since it may or may not be over.
9mm NATO was spec'd in 1955-ish? When was the last time they adjusted 9mm SAAMI? How many times has it been changed over the years as handguns got lighter and smokeless powder efficiency has improved?

The first thing SAAMI, aka the ammunition manufacturers, did was eliminate like 90% of known shotgun loads and 75% of all metallic cartridge loads then "standardized" their own.

As previously mentioned, in the world of modern ammunition P, +P, +P+, and NATO are all just marketing

Now the world has SAAMI, CIP, and NATO specs to go off of.